tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post3948217302651563824..comments2018-12-04T03:47:31.961-08:00Comments on The Natural Buddhist: "An unexamined life is not worth living" ~SocratesJohnFrosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10278998854486649830noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-82970843551598376322009-09-12T13:32:40.491-07:002009-09-12T13:32:40.491-07:00Two posts in the same day? Interesting! Has someon...Two posts in the same day? Interesting! Has someone plugged my blog somewhere, or is it just coincidence?<br /><br />@Strider-- sadly, not. I don't know how much of it I can blame on my deconversion, and how much is just a result of my life becoming so busy that we don't see each other anymore... we worked together for a long time, and we were always cordial and friendly, but I don't know how much I would call that "friends" after my deconversion. We used to have Bible studies at his house, actually, and several other couples were kind of going through their own deconversions or difficulties with the religion, and the more critical and skeptical the conversations became, the less he seemed to be interested in having us at his house.<br />I guess, though I don't see him anymore, I'd still consider him a closer friend than a lot of my other circle of friends who have simply avoided me like a leper.<br /><br />@Lori-- I'm glad you saw through the biblical bs at a young age. As a naturalist, I can't give much credence to your new beliefs... but as long as they're not affecting your actions, I guess they're not hurting anybody?<br />My own personal journey, since deconverting, led me to really delve into science... I was absolutely amazed how much we actually know--like, KNOW know, not just guess or speculate--that I was always taught was just made up ad hoc. I found the comfort of knowing actual truth far better than the mystical beliefs I toyed around with for a little bit after deconverting.<br />If your interested, I would recommend Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World"... he was a true wordsmith and storyteller and was truly gifted at making scientific knowledge accessible and enjoyable.JohnFrosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10278998854486649830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-61845007364827305852009-09-12T09:51:38.417-07:002009-09-12T09:51:38.417-07:00So is that close friend to whom you confessed you ...So is that close friend to whom you confessed you thought you couldn't be a "True" christian without actually going a little crazy still a close friend?Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14891568020027487586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-35603561767081794272009-09-12T08:52:47.731-07:002009-09-12T08:52:47.731-07:00I have read all that you have written with much in...I have read all that you have written with much interest. My Catholic upbringing sent me on the path you took at a much earlier age - reading the Bible for the first time brought questions and inconsistencies - not answers. I attended many different churches in high school (my mother attributed it to rebellion) and settled on the problem as the "human factor" and so swore off organized religions in early adulthood. A proclaimed agnostic while raising my children, I reverted to a different form of faith in middle age. I have become a form of a "new age" believer. Lets just say that the force is strong in me, but I loosely refer to it as the energy of the universe. Since I can feel it, and somehow channel it, I can't seem to go "atheistic" and deny it. However, I cannot give it a "creator god" definition, so there is no "theism" in my world either. Most likely I would attempt to define it as the energy from which all is formed and so I feel the connection. It is my hypothesis that this is what the sensitives have felt through the ages and as the ignorant often do - they have misdiagnosed it as "god" based on limited understanding and inadequate tools to investigate... It is also my theory that somewhere in the future - science will be able to define and measure it. This personal theory entails no faith, it is my method of defining what has lead us to this point.<br /><br />Thank you for opening a provocative discussion...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14709710016618659936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-402361681957183642009-08-21T14:11:55.123-07:002009-08-21T14:11:55.123-07:00Wow, John. I'm very impressed with your insigh...Wow, John. I'm very impressed with your insight.Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774743902893292141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-89008439279774189412009-08-21T10:08:19.281-07:002009-08-21T10:08:19.281-07:00I can only imagine.I can only imagine.Medussahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06161476633781368015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-35052818037535768402009-08-21T04:58:10.304-07:002009-08-21T04:58:10.304-07:00In fact, Dan Barker's "Godless" is m...In fact, Dan Barker's "Godless" is my favorite of the "once a pastor/christian, now an atheist" autobiographies. Though I was never a preacher (I did give my youth group a sermon once, and was always told I should be a preacher, though), I found our thought processes very similar... and the reaction of our christian "friends" when we deconverted!<br /><br />Thank you both for your kind words. I find it not so much difficult to think critically--that's something that always came naturally, it was just frowned on--but I find it difficult to weed out what things I learned "on authority" from my upbringing. For example, even now with evolutionary biology being one of my biggest passions, whenever I'm watching a documentary and the narrator says "millions of years," I suffer a kneejerk reaction, like a little trapdoor is trying to snap closed over my brain, even though I ~know~ now that the narrator's right! It can be very frustrating.JohnFrosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10278998854486649830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-78309531839062230672009-08-21T00:04:23.018-07:002009-08-21T00:04:23.018-07:00Very thoughtful replies. Thank you so much.Very thoughtful replies. Thank you so much.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08152305662832627637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-14193664890088615502009-08-20T22:05:33.601-07:002009-08-20T22:05:33.601-07:00That was a VERY thoughtful answer, I appreciate it...That was a VERY thoughtful answer, I appreciate it. And of course, I have a follow up question. Have you read Dan Barker's "Godless", whose story seems very similar to yours, at least in some aspects. If you have read it, I wonder if his quest for religious truth, which led him to reject religion altogether, sounds familiar to you? Is it in any way similar? <br />I realize there are probably as many ways to "deconvert" as there are failed christians, but he is a very articulate writer, and I understood his quest for truth, at least as far as an atheist (never was religious) can understand it.<br /><br />Regardless of that, however, I'm profoundly touched by your quest for the truth, and the courage to follow that wherever it leads you. I know it can't have been easy to turn your back on religion, and I imagine it's difficult to train oneself in critical, independent thinking after a lifetime of mandated submission.<br />Peopel like you are a credit to humanity.Medussahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06161476633781368015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-18637424671567955672009-08-20T19:09:03.155-07:002009-08-20T19:09:03.155-07:00@Gorgo-- I spent a lot of time thinking about that...@Gorgo-- I spent a lot of time thinking about that when the Neumann's case first started. When I said they "deserved their conviction", I mean this and only this: that, according to the letter of the law, the Neumann's are guilty of 2nd degree reckless manslaughter.<br />That does not mean that I think that they necessarily deserve the punishment that goes along with that conviction--I think our whole damn justice system needs rewriting from the ground up in order to rehabilitate rather than just incarcerate. However, so long as we're stuck with the legal system we have, the Neumann's fit the description, and should not be granted special favor on the merit of any "Freedom of religion" or other tripe that they were trying to get out on.<br /><br />@Medussa--you ask a very interesting question, and I've had to think really hard about how to answer it because I think your question kind of revealed to me an aspect I hadn't really thought about.<br />You ask when I started to reason again, what interrupted the blind obedience, and I realize that was part of the "problem" with my christianity to begin with: I was never happy with blind obedience, and I always had to reason everything out for myself. The issue was that I was raised in a relatively sheltered environment (homeschooled, very strict control of the media I absorbed), and so I never really witnessed anyone using reason outside of our own narrow view of christianity. I was purposefully frightened off of using my natural skepticism and logic on the Bible--as I mentioned in the post, bad things happen to people who doubt--but I felt free to turn that skepticism towards our "religion," which I saw as man-made (versus the Bible, which I was taught was God-made, and lied to that there were no errors or contradictions in it). So starting from a standpoint of "The Bible is THE Truth," I quickly realized that there were no churches that actually practiced what it taught. Chasing after that elusive "True" church led me further and further into crazyville. I remember confessing to a close friend, towards the end, that I was very honestly beginning to think that you couldn't be a "True" christian without actually going a little crazy.<br />So, really, it was my reasoning and thinking for myself that just kept crashing against the Bible, over and over, that eventually did me in. My "problem" was that I took the Bible more seriously than most christians, and, since it is a book written by men with different beliefs and viewpoints over hundreds of years of time, you WOULD have to go crazy to follow all of it to the letter!<br />I finally gave up, almost three years ago, and said that if I was ever to be a christian, God was going to have to speak to me and show me how because I just couldn't follow the Bible.<br />In the meantime, I started looking into other people's worldviews for the first time--really trying to understand them, and not just looking for ways to proselytize, like I was trained--and I really began to see how tiny and narrow a view christianity had. I also rediscovered a love for science that had been squashed by YEC lies, and the more I learned, the more those gaps for God to fit into shrunk. Eventually, there was nowhere left for a god to fit and, more importantly, no need. <br /><br />So, that's kind of a nutshell version, related to just your particular question. There's a lot more I could say about my deconversion, but I should probably make it a series of posts one day, rather than trying to hash it all out in the comments! Hope that offers you some insight. (and feel free to ask more questions!)JohnFrosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10278998854486649830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-1505664697617476612009-08-20T17:28:53.919-07:002009-08-20T17:28:53.919-07:00Just as an attempt to examine life, I find the exp...Just as an attempt to examine life, I find the expression "deserved their conviction" interesting. I can't pin down exactly why. What do you think it means? Why are we concerned about what they "deserve" and not what would improve society, do you think? Most people just see this as a silly question. Do you?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08152305662832627637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-42391589234850938642009-08-20T13:31:06.374-07:002009-08-20T13:31:06.374-07:00I was just llinked to this post, and know nothing ...I was just llinked to this post, and know nothing of your previous posts, so maybe you have clarified this ad nauseum... If so, I apologize, just point me to the right entry and I'll read up on it myself.<br />I am curious what it was that brought you to a point where you started allowing yourself to reason again? What interrupted the blind obediance? How did you allow yourself to think for yourself again?Medussahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06161476633781368015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-29767859292448425722009-08-20T11:58:21.330-07:002009-08-20T11:58:21.330-07:00If I understand what you're saying (and I'...If I understand what you're saying (and I'm not exactly sure I do), it would be an interesting theory. Especially since the reason we were so poor was because a literal interpretation of the Bible would seem to frown upon getting a good education and working your way up in the world, and instead encouraged working simple manual jobs and giving whatever you didn't need to survive over to the church. (which is just what we did)JohnFrosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10278998854486649830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3135125968385809209.post-40390437277748379622009-08-20T11:26:17.591-07:002009-08-20T11:26:17.591-07:00I find it interesting that one of your catalysts w...I find it interesting that one of your catalysts was the insanely high medical bill, and wonder whether psychologically parents are nudged toward these beliefs because they are less embarrassing than admitting one is too poor to properly care for your children.jemandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14019113699488108374noreply@blogger.com